Law, Grace, and the Scriptures...

[Joshua]

Greetings All!

Here is another fun topic to dig into...

Is the Law binding on the Church of God, or has it passed away and been replaced by something new?

The role of Law and/or Grace is often a puzzling theological issue.

Today one can find groups that run the gamut from Antinomianism, and Dispensationalism; which allege the Law is of no consequence to those under Grace, to Messianic Jews and Nazarene sects which teach full Torah Observance. And in between these lies a myriad of interpretations as to the significance of Law and Grace in the Christian Faith; thus I ask you all here what is the relationship between Law and Grace in Christianity?

Are we bound to observe the Law, and if so as many of us are Gentiles(if not all of us ;D), which aspects of the Law are binding?

If we are not bound to observe the Law, why? If because of Grace, does Grace represent a dispensation or doing away with of the Law?

I look forward to your answers...

Peace and be well,
Joshua

[Joshua]

No one is interested in this one eh?

[Rev. Timothy Buss]

The "law" really does not go away. Now it is a law of love. It is about loving our Savior and what he did for us so much that the thought of intentionally becoming involved in sin is repulsive to us. Not that we don't give in to sin but as we grow closer to God it becomes harder and harder to "break the law," and there is more regret for it. We now have a way to repent and immediately clear the slate, therefore, allowing us to be the receipients of God's grace.

[Joshua]

Greetings all!

Brother Joe, it indeed is a sizable discussion, but it's also critical to any preaching we do.

Brother Timothy, thank you for your input.

I am curious, you say "Now it is a law of love." In this, we can still find the implication of a change or transformation of the Law itself. Perhaps you can elaborate on your position a little more?

Peace and be well,
Joshua

[Joshua]

Peace to you Marko,

Thanks for taking the time to respond. As regards the law, we are counseled by the Holy Scriptures to understand that it is the Spirit, and not the Letter that leads to life. The Jews of Jesus' times were not unlike the Jews in our times in that they followed a rigid system of rules to the letter, and often used loop-holes to violate the Spirit of the Law while maintaining the Letter.

As regarding the possibility of our Lord intentionally lying, we need only visit Isaiah:
"He had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth."

Jesus spoke truth when he said he came to fulfill the law, he fulfilled it in accordance with it's Spirit and counseled us to do the same.

We have three commandments that universally fulfill the law:

Love the Lord your God with all your heart
Love your neighbor as yourself
And to Love one another as Jesus himself Loves us.

In the first two, are the whole of the law and the prophets(and many later mishnaic commentary concur...), and in the third we find the perfect unity of the Body of Christ.

If one has any doubt of this, we need only see the Lord's words in John 5:45-47:
Think not that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, on whom ye have set your hope. For if ye believed Moses, ye would believe me; for he wrote of me. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

First Christ reveals who the Jews of his time truly hope on for salvation, the Letter of Moses rather than the Lord their God. This is the works mentality that Christ, James, and Paul all refuted in harmony. Moses' Law points to a spiritual truth, and every act is a signpost, a sacrament pointing to the fullness of the Spirit of the Gospel in Jesus Christ. The Letter was given for a hard-hearted nation, who slipped into sin so soon after seeing the miraculous work of their God(the Golden Calf incident).

As regards Sola Fide, the teachings of the Apostles and their successors is very clear, and it is first voiced by our Lord himself... we shall know a tree by it's fruit. Good wells do not offer poison water. If we are truly filled with the Spirit, and a new creation we will manifest Godly works, not of our own ability but instead as a manifestation of the Grace of God through Jesus Christ. We become a witness to the world simply because we are able to do what was once impossible...

With that, I look forward to hearing your thoughts as we continue this discussion :P

Take care,
Joshua

[Remmie Chew 111]

hmmm interesting points u make josh but let me see if i can intersect a lil on what u are saying grace is giving 2 us by christ but that doesnt mean we can just dissolve our respect of the laws the lorddid say respect the law of the lands and thats something we must do grace and follow the rules the way i see it sometimes we can go against the laws of the land and may think just cause we dont get caught we are under grace not the point.we cannot assume being under grace is a way for us to just get away with whatever we want and god will allow things we do against the law to just slide.it isa pint of knowing the law respecting the true meaning of grace and following through.

[Joshua]

Hello Remmie!

Welcome to the Church of the Ancient Christian Faith, and thank you for participating!

When discussing the Law, we have to understand first and foremost that we mean it as "God's Law" the commands and standards given to us to live as Christians. Man's law is binding only insofar as it does not infringe upon God's Law. Thus yes, we Christians live a peaceful live in harmony with the laws of the nations we live in... but we live in these lands as strangers, citizens of the heavenly kingdom and so our ultimate standard for what is right and just is governed by God's precepts.

The discussion here is mostly focused on whether or not the Hebraic conception of Law is binding on Christians... are we to adhere to the Torah(both written and oral), and do things like observe Holy Days, Sabbath Rules, Kosher Rulings, the wearing of fringes upon our clothes, etc.

I hope that helps clear things up, and I really look forward to your responses in the future.

Peace and be well,
Joshua

[Remmie Chew 111]

hello josh can i call u that wel first let me say u have a few points in what u are speaking truly u do yet i see it as well as a way of saying what is or isnt the law of god or the grace of the world law. we live by gods grace and we are visitors here on this world yet some of us visitors as u put it tend to use our gifts and powers as a way of controlling those who dont know they are not of this world for instance the way a christian friend of mines is using his 10 yrs of being the word of god to try and control his now ex wife yes i say ex because she was more in christ then he was and recently seperated from him this same visitor like me now asks me to help him save the marriage he destroyed by not following either gods laws or human laws a wife is not ur slave or dog to jump when u say jump.
i have been in christ half my life and recently in the last 2 years i have noticed that i have grown more in christ then most of these ''men''that have been in christ for centuries why?because i have recently come to realise the greatest law of all that i mean only 1 or 2% in remmies life because god has already planned my life and knows what is out there yes he vcan change a few things here and there i have seen his glory in thatperiod already in these 2 yrs of my life but i have also come to seethat grace is a promise one we must respect and one we must cherish following the law of the land is respect because the land is gods and we are his children we must follow him but when we end up like my friend or like most ''christian men'' we become pathetic as the foolish galatians who throttled the grace god gave them.paul was right be content in life as to be content in ones surroundings as to be pleased with oneslife good or bad is to be content in real grace.

Joshua said:

Hello Remmie!

Welcome to the Church of the Ancient Christian Faith, and thank you for participating!

When discussing the Law, we have to understand first and foremost that we mean it as "God's Law" the commands and standards given to us to live as Christians. Man's law is binding only insofar as it does not infringe upon God's Law. Thus yes, we Christians live a peaceful live in harmony with the laws of the nations we live in... but we live in these lands as strangers, citizens of the heavenly kingdom and so our ultimate standard for what is right and just is governed by God's precepts.

The discussion here is mostly focused on whether or not the Hebraic conception of Law is binding on Christians... are we to adhere to the Torah(both written and oral), and do things like observe Holy Days, Sabbath Rules, Kosher Rulings, the wearing of fringes upon our clothes, etc.

I hope that helps clear things up, and I really look forward to your responses in the future.

Peace and be well,
Joshua

[Remmie Chew 111]

saved by our faith hmmm the question then is this my friend do any of us really truly know what faith is?i honestly dont think we do personally i fee llike this world is a place that only a few truly know what it means to have faith and what it means to have grace and even what it means to be a christian or anything else for that matter.why because seriuoly most of the great''men'' that run the churches in this generation or neanderthal fools who still believe in beating women over the head with clubs and dragging them back to thee home sto rape them and force them into marriage.grace my friend we get grace everyday we wake up and are allowed to breathe we get grace when we open our eyes in the morning we get grace simply because the lord says with a thought i created you so if he doesnt ''think'' to allow you to wake up then what are we my friend but puppets who foolishly believe we have some right to have grace put upon us we dont deserve grace we are a filthy sick heartless creature that was originally created to be a great glorious creation in our fathers image adam screwed that uply then blamed it on ''the women u gave me father god'' david killed a man took his wife and thretened anyone that spoke of it to death.....kane kiled abel even abraham oh great abraham had sarah pretend to be his cousin instead of trusting in god as he had always done.....grce grace you say grace my friend grace is a thread of pity keeping this so called''mans world'' adloat and i pray for revelations to come because time is running out for te foolish galatians of this new time period godbless thier worthless souls.
take care my brother i hope to speak with you soon.

Rev. Marko Rei deKol said:

This one always sparks emotional fireworks for believers. I guess I fall into the Nazarene sect, as you state above, and that can pigeon hole us as some new comer heretic. Seriously, I do not care what the majority say in them, as Messianics are Pentecostals with kippas and tzitzit (tassels commanded in Number 15) whom are prideful of being above their gentile followers. There are few that are not like that, so, please always give each person the equal measure of opportunity to prove them self. Nazarenes are hard to get as most do believe in "Two House" but they do not always agree on how to keep a command. I see the same ridiculous arguments on these things and it all boils down to some want to do all just like our Jewish brethren and others want to do it their own way.

I for one do believe and learn as I go what the Almighty commands us to do. We can so easily get caught up in either side of this fence; Grace makes laws go away and Law is over Grace. Fact is Abraham was saved by grace first, and he was given command of circumcision as an outward sign of the covenant The Almighty made with him because of his faith. The knowledge of clean and unclean foods was know by Noah as the clean animals went on by seven pairs and all unclean by single pairs. This would have had some dumbing down when Israelite peoples were in Egypt seeing pagan worship and eating customs, which The Almighty reminds them of. Even with this massive exodus they make a golden calf and bring more upon themselves. Idolatry and adultery are likened to the same as it is us being unfaithful to Almighty when we go after idols, and we are unfaithful to our spouse when be go to anothers bed. The law is really just 613 instructions that are not hard and lead us to righteous living before The Almighty. Now, compare this to government and federal laws I would get dizzy trying to count those up. So, us Nazarenes see the "Grace only crowd" as lazy and think Yeshua the Messiah is lying or being crafty with words of law abrogation. This of course sounds blasphemous right? That is how us Nazarenes see them as those with itchy ears looking for what they can make of Scripture. After all Yeshua did say that any who teach not to do even the least of the commandments will be least in the kingdom and he also said many will come but few will get into the kingdom. Furthermore no one can say by scripture that Apostle Paul nor any other Apostle stopped following the Torah commands and taught others to do the same. If so, Paul was a liar when he stood in front of the other Apostles in the Jerusalem counsel and stated he does keep and teach Torah.

We, whether Christian, Jewish, or Israelite (Nazarenes believe by scriptural and secular proof that the lost tribes of Israel are among all the nations.) should know and not beat around the bush that we are saved by our faith in what Yeshua did for us and that this faith will naturally have manifest works as Jacob (James) speaks of. They can not be separate from each other because if you have faith and no works then you are doing nothing for the Word of Almighty being spread.

Peace and blessings to you all
Marko

[Joshua]

Hello Marko,

Just to be clear here... are you calling St. Paul an Anti-Semite? :P

Be well,
Joshua

[Kent Wheeler]

Well Greetings all
I haven't said much lately.I do believe the law of the spirit,the law of love as taught in the scripture are the same thing.They are clarified in the Sermon on the Mount,and the spirit of Christ helps us live by his teaching there.These are not high ideals as some theologian think but rather a way of lifeThis is what me thinks.
Blessings Br.Kent.

[Remmie Chew 111]

the law of love i follow continuessly in my life especially in the last 2 yrs of my life the lord has been strongly workin with me in a situation with ex fiancee welll i dont like calling her my ex i just say we are seperatedat the moment but i feel that i made mistakes at a point because i let my church and some of the mebers there who are family persuade me to basically lose something very special t ome but i was re realised that when god gives u something it is yours and lately the lord is telling me you have done all i asked and i am proud of you my son and he is working within her spirit to return her to my path i have been completely singleness in this time of over a year and 4 months i have not been sexually active in that time frame or even focused on the female species i do know waht u mea nas far as trusting i nthe faith of love gods love not human love but the true essence of love he speaks p anf breathes so u are right if more and more we followed the doctorine of his love life would be a glorious thing.

Kent Wheeler said:

Well Greetings all
I haven't said much lately.I do believe the law of the spirit,the law of love as taught in the scripture are the same thing.They are clarified in the Sermon on the Mount,and the spirit of Christ helps us live by his teaching there.These are not high ideals as some theologian think but rather a way of lifeThis is what me thinks.
Blessings Br.Kent.

[Rev.Daniel T Webb]

The law was a taskmaster but Job and Noah and Abraham all lived and died without the law of Moses as did Adam and were saved outside the law as are we by having a relantionship with Christ then just as we do now. The law never saved anyone nor will the keeping of it every save anyone nor could it even if one could keep it perfectly save anyone nor could it pay for sins. The Adamnic Covenant and the Covenant with Noah, the Abrahamnic covenant, and the ultimate Covenant of Christ which is the common thread of promiseof salvation given in the three previous covenants is where the source of salvation lies.
Not in the Mosaic law in any manner at all. I wish christians with stop playing with law and grace and realize that Enoch walked with God, and Abraham talked with God and God called him friend. We had better be there as well. remember Jesus said to the disciples, you are my friends if you obey me and keep my commandments. see the sermon on the mount Matthew 5-7 here is the primary guide for the New Testament believer in a nut shell.