Church of the Ancient Christian Faith
Early Church Principles for a Modern World
Interesting insights on Scripture...
Hello All,
In my research on the Canon, and Holy Scripture I was led to an interesting series of discoveries that I'd like some feedback on, though I suggest you check out the discussion "Bible, Canon, Scripture: What does it mean, and why does it matter?" if you're a late comer to the party...
With that out of the way, let us begin :D. In the Canon of Holy Scripture we find quotes or concepts which are not familiar to us today, but were common enough that the authors could use them without too much doubt as to whether or not the audience would get the reference.
For example Paul was known to quote Epimenides’ and other classical authors when he wanted to sympathize with his Gentile audience... but perhaps more interesting is the use of sources known to the Hebrews such as Enoch, and the Assumption of Moses as containing valid prophecy or history.
For example, in the Epistle of Jude we find quotes from both of these texts:
"And angels that kept not their own principality, but left their proper habitation, he hath kept in everlasting bonds under darkness unto the judgment of the great day." Jude 1:6 ASV
Here we have an allusion to ideas not found in our modern Canon, but clearly detailed in Enoch; it is perhaps the most enduring story from this text... the concept permeates traditions even before the rediscovery of the text.
"Yet in like manner these also in their dreamings defile the flesh, and set at nought dominion, and rail at dignities. But Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing judgment, but said, The Lord rebuke thee. But these rail at whatsoever things they know not: and what they understand naturally, like the creatures without reason, in these things are they destroyed. " Jude 1:8-10 ASV
The italicized portion comes from an Apocryphal text known as the Assumption of Moses, and it seems Jude is using it here to instruct on Godly conduct in the face of ungodly behavior. In fact the whole Epistle itself is an exhortation to continue an un-spotted life amongst the world.
"And to these also Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied, saying, Behold, the Lord came with ten thousands of his holy ones, to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their works of ungodliness which they have ungodly wrought, and of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against him." Jude 1:14-15 ASV
And here we find a line taken directly from the text of Enoch cited as prophecy by an inspired author. The Apocalypse of John, 2 Peter, and others also have allusions or citations of Enoch. Interestingly enough Jude, 2 Peter, and Revelation were among the Antilegomena for quite a long time, and even Martin Luther doubted them in this modern age... quite possibly due to the use of Enochian material.
It would be easy to go on and on marking allusions and quotations throughout the New Testament of just those two texts, but let us save that for another time and get to the real meat and potatoes of this discussion.
In 2nd Timothy, Chapter 3 we find the oft abused line regarding the inspiration of scripture:
"Every scripture inspired of God is also profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for instruction which is in righteousness." 2 Tim 3:16
While this line is describing inspired writings, and their authority for "instruction which is in righteousness" if we put it back into it's context we see that this line refers specifically to holy writings which are known to his audience, and is further extended to every inspired writing.
"And that from a babe thou hast known the sacred writings which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. Every scripture inspired of God is also profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for instruction which is in righteousness. That the man of God may be complete, furnished completely unto every good work." 2 Tim 3:15-17
This is especially curious as we look earlier in the Epistle:
"And even as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also withstand the truth. Men corrupted in mind, reprobate concerning the faith." 2 Tim 3:8
Here we find a reference to what Origen calls "The Book of Jannes and Jambres" which we may now know as "The Apocalypse of Jannes and Jambres." It seems that even as he affirms the traditional Old Testament Canon, Paul affirms his use of this tradition as well as the authority of his and other inspired writings.
Without lying out too much more detail, I am curious to see what others gather from this data; how do you interpret this data, and what is it's relevance if anything to the way we view the Canon and Holy Scripture?
Peace and be well,
Joshua
In my research on the Canon, and Holy Scripture I was led to an interesting series of discoveries that I'd like some feedback on, though I suggest you check out the discussion "Bible, Canon, Scripture: What does it mean, and why does it matter?" if you're a late comer to the party...
With that out of the way, let us begin :D. In the Canon of Holy Scripture we find quotes or concepts which are not familiar to us today, but were common enough that the authors could use them without too much doubt as to whether or not the audience would get the reference.
For example Paul was known to quote Epimenides’ and other classical authors when he wanted to sympathize with his Gentile audience... but perhaps more interesting is the use of sources known to the Hebrews such as Enoch, and the Assumption of Moses as containing valid prophecy or history.
For example, in the Epistle of Jude we find quotes from both of these texts:
"And angels that kept not their own principality, but left their proper habitation, he hath kept in everlasting bonds under darkness unto the judgment of the great day." Jude 1:6 ASV
Here we have an allusion to ideas not found in our modern Canon, but clearly detailed in Enoch; it is perhaps the most enduring story from this text... the concept permeates traditions even before the rediscovery of the text.
"Yet in like manner these also in their dreamings defile the flesh, and set at nought dominion, and rail at dignities. But Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing judgment, but said, The Lord rebuke thee. But these rail at whatsoever things they know not: and what they understand naturally, like the creatures without reason, in these things are they destroyed. " Jude 1:8-10 ASV
The italicized portion comes from an Apocryphal text known as the Assumption of Moses, and it seems Jude is using it here to instruct on Godly conduct in the face of ungodly behavior. In fact the whole Epistle itself is an exhortation to continue an un-spotted life amongst the world.
"And to these also Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied, saying, Behold, the Lord came with ten thousands of his holy ones, to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their works of ungodliness which they have ungodly wrought, and of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against him." Jude 1:14-15 ASV
And here we find a line taken directly from the text of Enoch cited as prophecy by an inspired author. The Apocalypse of John, 2 Peter, and others also have allusions or citations of Enoch. Interestingly enough Jude, 2 Peter, and Revelation were among the Antilegomena for quite a long time, and even Martin Luther doubted them in this modern age... quite possibly due to the use of Enochian material.
It would be easy to go on and on marking allusions and quotations throughout the New Testament of just those two texts, but let us save that for another time and get to the real meat and potatoes of this discussion.
In 2nd Timothy, Chapter 3 we find the oft abused line regarding the inspiration of scripture:
"Every scripture inspired of God is also profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for instruction which is in righteousness." 2 Tim 3:16
While this line is describing inspired writings, and their authority for "instruction which is in righteousness" if we put it back into it's context we see that this line refers specifically to holy writings which are known to his audience, and is further extended to every inspired writing.
"And that from a babe thou hast known the sacred writings which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. Every scripture inspired of God is also profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for instruction which is in righteousness. That the man of God may be complete, furnished completely unto every good work." 2 Tim 3:15-17
This is especially curious as we look earlier in the Epistle:
"And even as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also withstand the truth. Men corrupted in mind, reprobate concerning the faith." 2 Tim 3:8
Here we find a reference to what Origen calls "The Book of Jannes and Jambres" which we may now know as "The Apocalypse of Jannes and Jambres." It seems that even as he affirms the traditional Old Testament Canon, Paul affirms his use of this tradition as well as the authority of his and other inspired writings.
Without lying out too much more detail, I am curious to see what others gather from this data; how do you interpret this data, and what is it's relevance if anything to the way we view the Canon and Holy Scripture?
Peace and be well,
Joshua
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Rev. Timothy Buss on -
Dear Joshua:
This is brilliant scholarship which we need more of. So keep it coming!!!
As commentary on your writings, let me say this: There are a number of Biblical writings that use so called "obscure" sources which were considered by the writers authentic and recognizable by their readers, and yet today we do not give them the light of day.
Blessings,
+Timothy
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Permalink Reply by Rev.Daniel T Webb on -
Well brother the Syrian orthodox and Ethiopian Orthodox Church have the Book of Enoch as part of their Bible and Canon. We also hold to the same at St.Timothy's Apostolic Anglican Christian Church, here in Fort Wayne, In along will the 151 psalm and alll the books held to by the orthodox Church both greek and Syrian.
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Permalink Reply by Kent Wheeler on
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I believe the scriptures of the new testement church is the Septuigent,perhaps other writings as well.I comment you Br.on your seeking of the truth.Example would be Heb 10:8,and Ps 40:6-8.The Masoretic text says nothing about a body being prepared only unstopping ears.Br.Kent
Rev.Daniel T Webb said:Well brother the Syrian orthodox and Ethiopian Orthodox Church have the Book of Enoch as part of their Bible and Canon. We also hold to the same at St.Timothy's Apostolic Anglican Christian Church, here in Fort Wayne, In along will the 151 psalm and alll the books held to by the orthodox Church both greek and Syrian.
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Permalink Reply by Remmie Chew 111 on -
MEN OF CHRIST GREAT UNDERSTANDERS OR NEANDERTHAL FOOLS
THIS IS A MESSAGE OR DARE I SAY MORE LIKE AN UNDERSTANDING TO THE FOOLISH GALATIANS WHO DARE CALL THEMSELVES MEN OF GOD ...PLEASE DONT SHAME THE WORD WITH YOUR PATHETIC FOOLISHNESS WHAT U HAVE DONE IS TURN THE WORLD INTO A FEMALE HATED WE ARE MASTERS OF OUR DOMAIN WORTHLESS CRAP HOLE YES I SAID CRAP HOLE I COULD HAVE USED A MORE VULGER WORD BUT UNLIKE YOU PEONS I HAVE HAPPEN TO GRASP THE LORDS WORD...BUT SOME OF YOU OUT THERE HAVE NOT AND RECENTLY A FEW OF YOU HAVE HAD THE FOOLISH RIGHT TO CROSS MY PATH....VERY VERY WRONG TURN UNEEDED MISTAKE AND FOOLISH DECISION.WHY YOU ASK? WELL SIMPLY PUT BECAUSE I DONT BELIEVE IN YOUR PHILOSOPHY OR YOUR LIFESTYLE OR YOUR WAYS.YOU SEE WHAT YOU SPEAK ISNT GODS WORD AT ALL ITS USELESS MALE BANTER.VERY VERY USELESS MALE BANTER.THE CHILDISH INCOMPETANCE OF A HEATHEN RACE OF MONGROLE IDIOTS.WHICH IS A COMPLIMENT ON MY PART BECAUSE IT IS A VAST STEP UP FROM BASTARD HOUNDS,I THOUGHT ID BE NICE AND GIVE YOU SOME SENSE OF HUMANISM.
NOT THAT ANY OF YOU TRULY DESERVE IT...WELL MAYBE 1 OR 2 OUT THERE BUT MOST OF YOU DONT...LETS STRT OFF BY TALKING ABOUT JESUS AT A TIME I LIKE TO CALL PROVING MALE IGNORANCE!....WHEN THE LORD CAME TO THE RESCUE OF THE PROSTITUTE RAHAB...HE DREW A LINE IN THE SAND AND CALLED OUT THAT ANYONE WHO WAS PURE OF ACTION WITH NO TRANSGRESSIONS AGAINST THERE LIFE WHATSOEVER ..MAY CAST THE FIRST STONE!...IN OTHER WORDS KILL RAHAB!..WHAT THE BIBLE DOESNT SAY BUT MANY PICTURES OVER THE YEARS HVE SHOWN IS THE PORTAYAL OF MANY MEN WHO WERE STANDING THERE AND MOSTLY MEN DID HIGH AMOUNTS OF STONINGS IN THOSE DAYS...BUT THATS THE KEY WORD ''MEN''...MEN WANTING TO STONE A PROSTITUTE TO DEATH AND I SAY TO YOU AL HOW MANY OF THOSE MEN HMMMM HAD SLEPT WITH RAHAB? HAD INFACT BEEN TO HER HOME THEMSELVES?...OH I HAVE A FEELING A FEW FROM THHE CROWD AND MANY A FEW A MARRIED MAN AS WELL ILL SAY FOR A FACT!.HMMM STONING HER WOULD COVER UP THIER BETRAYAL THEIR EVIL THEIR UTTER PATHETIC LIVES AS MEN AND I WONDER HOW ME MISSED THIS KEY POINT IN MALE HISTORY THAT WAS SO OBVIOUS BUT I WOULD LIKE YOU TO REMEBER THAT I AM ONLY SAYING THIS AS A FACT OF WHAT I HAVE SEEN THROUGH MY OWN EYES NOW YOU CAN TAKE IT AS AN OPINION BUT I HOPE YOU TAKE IT SECURLY AS THE TRUTH.YOU ARE NOT GOD! AND YOU ARE NOT A KING! YES...SADLY YOU ARE CONCIDERED PRINCES OF THE KINGDOM...BUT ARE YOU A NOBLE PRINCE SUCH AS JOHN OR PAUL OR ARE YOU A DISGRACEFUL PRINCE? SUCH AS DAVID WHEN HE TOOK ANOTHER MANS WIFE AND INPREGNATED GER OR WHEN HE KILLED THAT SAME MAN TO HAVE HIS WIFE. OR ARE YOU MORE LIKE CAIN AS A PRINCE WHO KILLED HIS BROTHER OUT OF JEALOUSY D THEN LIED IN HIS PAIN AND TRIED TO HIDE HIS DARK TRESPASSES.NOW AS YOU UNDERSTAND THE STATE I AM PUTTING YOU IN I WANT YOU TO REMEBER THIS ONE PARTICULATE? THE ONLY MAN THAT MEANING HUMAN BIENG THAT HAS A PENIS ORGAN ATTACHED TO HIM THAT IS WAS AND ALWAYS WILL BE TRUTHFUL PERFECT AND STRONG IS JESUS CHRIST!.THE MESSIAH THE ALMIGHTY THE REAL KING OF KINGS! END PART1.
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