Early Christian Faith Discussion, redux...

[Joshua]

Greetings Brother Greg,

It seems my response wasn't well received, so the thread is gone... I just happened to be responding to you when it disappeared, so if you're interested we can continue it here.


## Start Response ##
An interesting response... but I think you misunderstood what I meant when I said "justify." I didn't so much mean it in an atonement, rightness before God sort of way... I meant to imply "When confronted with the fact that you're in schism from groups that can claim Apostolic Continuity, and that schism is indeed a sin... what do you say?" We were discussing the application of Early Christian Principles in our ministries after all ;-).

That being said, you've tripped on an answer, but I'm not sure we're on the same page yet... so let's keep playing :c).

The Early Church removed Elders who taught false doctrine, or engaged in immorality because they were no longer fit to be Elders; it was still unacceptable to separate from the Koinoina of the Ekklesia. The Church of God is one is a theme which repeats itself through the Holy Scriptures, and the Witness of the Early Christians.

A classic example of this is Hippolytus, who was elected Bishop of Rome in opposition to a Bishop who was seen as overly lax and compromising; his congregation was later reconciled when he and the current Bishop of Rome were in exile. They were both returned to be buried as martyrs to the faith.

In fact this is often where most "Churches" come from... in the heat of a dispute an Elder is deposed and another is elected in his place. Sometimes the Elder does the right thing and steps down, other times he carries on in Schism.

Therefore we come back full circle... technically we're all in schism; So why are we in schism, and why is it okay since schism is a sin?

It's been fun, let's keep going :D.

Peace and be well,
Joshua


## End Response ##
Greg Monroe said:

A very good question Joshua,

The answer is that I don't "Justify" my Sin of Schism, Jesus Christ does that at The Cross. Where I take my stand is in discernment of Truth. I personally hold to accepting "The Body Catholic" as being in the hearts of faithful followers of all denominations, and recognize that it is blind leadership in the church that has failed, not the congregation. You show me where there is a Church who has held true to the Faith and I will follow. I was once Anglican myself, but left because of Sexual Immorality in the leadership, not because of any schism I hold with the Ancient Faith.

Greg

[Greg Monroe]

Bro. Joshua,

I don't know about you, but in my humble experience the topic of "Schism" has never been well received, especially when the opening salvo begins with the accusation ( implied or otherwise ) that one of the participants is in fact in such a state.
I myself do not fear such questions because I have asked myself most of them, sought the answers, and if I don't have one I'm not ashamed to admit it, so "I'm in, Ante up" !

Due to my many years of soul searching, I can quite confidently tell you that I'm a wretched worthless sinner totally unworthy of any notice at all from God, therefore being discovered to be a sinner by someone else is not a "blow to my ego" and that is were I believe many fail when it comes to discussing Heresies and Schisms. They have the all too human difficulty in facing the possibility that they may be wrong. I will assure you from the start that like St. Paul, I will profess to know nothing on this topic but Christ and Him Crucified, for if it does not directly concern Salvation, or pose a threat to someone's Eternal Security, then I don't see why we can't simply have different views and maintain communion with each other.

So now let's get down to business....

"When confronted with the fact that you're in schism from groups that can claim Apostolic Continuity, and that schism is indeed a sin... what do you say?"

Well, the first thing that comes to mind would be, "Why is that such a bad thing?"
It is one thing to "claim" Apostolic Continuity, and yet something very different to "Have" Apostolic Continuity.
Am I truly in schism if I'm not a member of a group that "claims" Apostolic Continuity but is openly opposed to another that also makes the same claim?

Greg

[Joshua]

Hello Brother Greg,

Interesting points all around. Like you, I'm more of a "I'm in, Ante Up" kinda guy. I'm not afraid to "be that guy" and ask the questions we need to be addressing. As for accusations, I didn't accuse anyone of anything; I stated a fact and requested clarification :D.

The people gathered here aren't just average Christians putzing around... they're Pastors and Elders of active ministries; they are engaged in the business of our Father's house... and thus they must be held to the necessary standards lest the Evil One find room to get his foot in the door. And as always, the witness of the Ancients is loud and clear as to what those standards are:

"For they were desirous that these men should be very perfect and blameless in all things, whom also they were leaving behind as their successors, delivering up their own place of government to these men; which men, if they discharged their functions honestly, would be a great boon [to the Church], but if they should fall away, the direst calamity."
(Against Heresies, 3:3:3).

As for "Christ Crucified" that is but the narrow gate through which we enter, milk for spiritual newborns. The Elders need to be ready to hand out the solid food in due time ;-).

Clement of Alexandria often spoke of the faithful experiencing Christ in stages... first he is Lord and Redeemer. Next he is a wise teacher, instilling virtue to his pupils... and last he is High Priest, initiator of the Mysteries where he commends us to the presence of the Father.

At the very least, we should be striving to accept Christ in his role of teacher, and patterning our lives on his example; "If you love me, do as I ask." Haha let me clarify and say I'm not accusing anyone of not doing that, I'm merely discussing my view on how we should be approaching this community.

That being said, once again you're walking down the right road but it's like you don't want to say it... so I guess I will. Our position is justified solely by virtue of the fact that the other groups have wandered from the Apostolic Faith, and therefore have ZERO claim to Apostolic Continuity. As Bishop Irenaeus wrote in his Against Gnosis, Falsely So Called:

"In this order, and by this succession, the ecclesiastical tradition from the apostles, and the preaching of the truth, have come down to us. And this is most abundant proof that there is one and the same vivifying faith, which has been preserved in the Church from the apostles until now, and handed down in truth." (Against Heresies, 3:3:3).

There is but one faith coming down, being delivered once for all and the ancient witness calls us to task time and again on this matter:

"But [it is also incumbent] to hold in suspicion others who depart from the primitive succession, and assemble themselves together in any place whatsoever, [looking upon them] either as heretics of perverse minds, or as schismatics puffed up and self-pleasing, or again as hypocrites, acting thus for the sake of lucre and vainglory. For all these have fallen from the truth. And the heretics, indeed, who bring strange fire to the altar of God— namely, strange doctrines— shall be burned up by the fire from heaven, as were Nadab and Abiud. But such as rise up in opposition to the truth, and exhort others against the Church of God, [shall] remain among those in hell (apud inferos), being swallowed up by an earthquake, even as those who were with Chore, Dathan, and Abiron. But those who cleave asunder, and separate the unity of the Church, [shall] receive from God the same punishment as Jeroboam did."
(Against Heresies, 4:26:2)

Therefore we occupy a strange limbo, seeking a return to the narrow way and yet not quite there. It is for these reasons that I have chosen to dedicate myself to researching the Apostolic Faith, so that we can pattern ourselves after that life giving inheritance.

I hope this clarifies my original intent abit.

Peace and be well,
Joshua


Greg Monroe said:

Bro. Joshua,

I don't know about you, but in my humble experience the topic of "Schism" has never been well received, especially when the opening salvo begins with the accusation ( implied or otherwise ) that one of the participants is in fact in such a state.
I myself do not fear such questions because I have asked myself most of them, sought the answers, and if I don't have one I'm not ashamed to admit it, so "I'm in, Ante up" !

Due to my many years of soul searching, I can quite confidently tell you that I'm a wretched worthless sinner totally unworthy of any notice at all from God, therefore being discovered to be a sinner by someone else is not a "blow to my ego" and that is were I believe many fail when it comes to discussing Heresies and Schisms. They have the all too human difficulty in facing the possibility that they may be wrong. I will assure you from the start that like St. Paul, I will profess to know nothing on this topic but Christ and Him Crucified, for if it does not directly concern Salvation, or pose a threat to someone's Eternal Security, then I don't see why we can't simply have different views and maintain communion with each other.

So now let's get down to business....

"When confronted with the fact that you're in schism from groups that can claim Apostolic Continuity, and that schism is indeed a sin... what do you say?"

Well, the first thing that comes to mind would be, "Why is that such a bad thing?"
It is one thing to "claim" Apostolic Continuity, and yet something very different to "Have" Apostolic Continuity.
Am I truly in schism if I'm not a member of a group that "claims" Apostolic Continuity but is openly opposed to another that also makes the same claim?

Greg

[Greg Monroe]

Bro. Joshua,

"...once again you're walking down the right road but it's like you don't want to say it..."

Maybe I wasn't as direct as I could have been, but we are treading on some contentious ground here. Clearly though you understood my intent in asking if being in schism with "groups have wandered from the Apostolic Faith, and therefore have ZERO claim to Apostolic Continuity." was such a bad thing.

Before we go any further my brother, I feel that I should clarify a few things, that can possibly help in this discussion.

On the subject of accusation, it is important to be aware that it is more often perceived by spirit convicted listeners than it is intentionally delivered by the teacher of law. Merely discussing The Law can bring feelings of guilt and being judged even though that is not the instructors intention. Since one cannot know what is in the heart of the listener, it is best to be gentle when dealing with such topics. I am guilty of this very thing in you feeling "accused" by a statement in my previous post, and I apologize.

Next..."... they're Pastors and Elders of active ministries; they are engaged in the business of our Father's house..."
I should remind you that my "ministry" is a very small and humble one, I'm just an ordinary guy with a perceived calling, self-educated, and a hobby of making internet videos. Some times I go out into an impoverished neighborhood with a PA system and a steamer pot of potato soup, but I'm not in the same league as the majority of the participants here, I'm at best a student willing to be taught.

"...that these men should be very perfect and blameless in all things," I painfully know that I don't even come close to that standard, and I don't honestly know of anybody who does. If anything I point out my faults in my efforts to teach others, and often use myself as the "example not to follow".

That being said, I do feel that there is no current "major" group that has maintained Apostolic Continuity untainted by the passage of time and all are effectively schismatic from the Apostolic Age Church.

This has also left me feeling "in limbo" not knowing which path to follow. I know my Shepherd's voice, and it has been calling me to return to the "Faith first given...." which is why I study and learn from those who received that "Faith" and seek to apply what I can to my personal walk.

Greg

[Joshua]

Peace Brother Greg,

I'm quite aware of the contentious nature of the matter... the truth always tends to be a matter of consternation :P

That being said, to briefly sum up my position I'm going to fall back on my programming background.

Since we can agree that schism is sin based on the witness of the ancients, we can proceed as follows:

Sin = Bad
Schism = Sin
Therefore Schism = Bad

What we have to determine is what constitutes schism. Since one can only schism from the Church of God, what constitutes the Church of God?

There's actually abit of a discussion on that matter here http://cotacf.ning.com/forum/topics/the-church-of-god-which if you're interested in my point of view.

I'll leave you with that for now. I look forward to discussing the matter later on.

Peace and be well,
Joshua


Greg Monroe said:

Bro. Joshua,

"...once again you're walking down the right road but it's like you don't want to say it..."

Maybe I wasn't as direct as I could have been, but we are treading on some contentious ground here. Clearly though you understood my intent in asking if being in schism with "groups have wandered from the Apostolic Faith, and therefore have ZERO claim to Apostolic Continuity." was such a bad thing.

Before we go any further my brother, I feel that I should clarify a few things, that can possibly help in this discussion.

On the subject of accusation, it is important to be aware that it is more often perceived by spirit convicted listeners than it is intentionally delivered by the teacher of law. Merely discussing The Law can bring feelings of guilt and being judged even though that is not the instructors intention. Since one cannot know what is in the heart of the listener, it is best to be gentle when dealing with such topics. I am guilty of this very thing in you feeling "accused" by a statement in my previous post, and I apologize.

Next..."... they're Pastors and Elders of active ministries; they are engaged in the business of our Father's house..."
I should remind you that my "ministry" is a very small and humble one, I'm just an ordinary guy with a perceived calling, self-educated, and a hobby of making internet videos. Some times I go out into an impoverished neighborhood with a PA system and a steamer pot of potato soup, but I'm not in the same league as the majority of the participants here, I'm at best a student willing to be taught.

"...that these men should be very perfect and blameless in all things," I painfully know that I don't even come close to that standard, and I don't honestly know of anybody who does. If anything I point out my faults in my efforts to teach others, and often use myself as the "example not to follow".

That being said, I do feel that there is no current "major" group that has maintained Apostolic Continuity untainted by the passage of time and all are effectively schismatic from the Apostolic Age Church.

This has also left me feeling "in limbo" not knowing which path to follow. I know my Shepherd's voice, and it has been calling me to return to the "Faith first given...." which is why I study and learn from those who received that "Faith" and seek to apply what I can to my personal walk.

Greg

[Greg Monroe]

Bro. Joshua,

What you wrote in the other thread was very interesting, and thought provoking....

And while I was in prayer last night, I received a word on the subject which I will leave you to determine if it is useful to this discussion.

Many people, both disciples and soldiers, faithful and unfaithful, believers and naysayers went to the Tomb only to find it Empty, and the question was asked "Where is The Body of Christ"?

Jesus my friends is not dead, He Has Risen, and is very much Alive.

There have been over the years numerous generations who having found Offense with The Body, plucked out an eye here, a hand there, cut off a foot, removed an ear......till now fully dismembered they ask once again..."Where is The Body"?

The Body being beaten, broken, and dismembered and cast out to the four corners of the earth is today feared Dead, as He was in the day they took Him down from the Cross and laid Him in the Tomb. Now The Body can't be seen and the people grieve, Where is It? Who Took The Body? What Happened?

Well, Jesus Is Risen, The Tomb Is Empty, and The Law Fulfilled, And God is Where He Always Has Been....

If you Seek The Body, you must not be A Member Of The Body, and you cannot Join Into The Body as long as you are continuing to separate yourself from it.

Revelation 7: 9-14
After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

The Church Has Risen out of Great Tribulation....

Greg